Please respond to the following prompts in collaboration with your fellow classmates. I'm looking for you to discuss the readings by referring to previous posts rather than just listing your interpretations. Also make sure to identify who you are and your class period. I need this so that I can give you credit for your posting. Thanks. Mr. Domingo
Tuesday, October 13, 2009
"The Other Paris" passage
"The Other Paris" is a short story by the Canadian writer Mavis Gallant. Read the passage from the short story carefully and explain how the author uses narrative voice and characterization to provide social commentary.
Adding on to what I said in class, I was also wondering if anyone thought that Mavis Gallant was trying to imply something on American Media and how it influences decisions that have to be made. For example in lines 14-16, it says "no one had proposed to her before, except an unsuitable medical student with no money and eight years training still to go." The key word being unsuitable, because who defines what is suitable, besides the media? Also, in lines 27-29, it clearly says, "that the illusion of love was a blight imposed by the film industry." It straight out says film industry, which definitely influences decisions. Does anyone else think that Gallant is saying something about the media? Furthermore, on the question that Adrianne started the seminar with, I think that the last line in the passage is simply a picture of dinnertime, and how Carol and Howard will just be "a person who fills in at dinner" for one another. Does anyone think its anything else?
On Nick's proposal on Mavis Gallant trying to portray an opinion on television, I agree with him.Gallant may be trying to show the negative influences of TV on American society.Carol's college courses teach her that the film industry is "responsible for the high rate of divorce".With most people, they dream of falling in love and the romantic moments grounded into our minds by television.Even in the music industy, love is a major subject.These songs also speak about finding that one special person.This subconsciously beats into our mind the desire to find the love that music and television illustrate.When people cannot find the love they see on the television, divorce becomes a popular alternative.This idea explains why Carol believes that "a common interest" is all one needs for a good relationship.Rather than look for television's love, Carols choses to build love from common interests.
On the last line of the excerpt, I believe that it shows Howard's motive for his proposal.The image that Howard sees after speaking to his sister drives him to his "out of character" proposal to Carol.This sentence enables us to see a reason for his marriage, while most of the excerpt of the passage is devoted to Carol's opinion.
I also want to add a question that came to mind after reading the passage. The first line of the paragraph that starts talking about Howard confused me a bit.The line reads, "Howard had no notion of any of this." To me, this sentence means that Howard has no intention of falling in love, which may make things difficult for Carol.What does everyone else think this sentence implies?
In regards to what Nick posted, I agree with what he pointed out. It also adds to the criticism on the concepts of love and marriage through out the 1950's, and how they are trying to fit in with the standards of society -- adding on to what was said in class. Through narrative voice and irony, Gallant expresses her disapproval for the bland form of marriage common during the early era and America's failure in challenging it as well. Like in lines 43-44, it is ironic how it's stated, "there was no reason for the engagement or marriage to fail" when it is obvious it DOES have a reason; loveless! To make a further comment on what I think Asseret said, the two are trying to force themselves to have a common interest. The two are "gravely embarrassed" as said in line 38 to discuss their religious beliefs because they are afraid of how society will perceive them if they discuss something other than their boring lives.
Additionally, on what I said about living to the standards of society, in lines 15-16, "an unsuitable medical student," this indicates that Carol is more likely listening to society than her own instincts. She might of been in love with this man, but because he wasn't an ideal stereotype of what a man is supposed to be, with a job and $$$$, she chooses to be with Howard. A man who she has no interest in whatsoever.
In regards to what Nick and Aabra said, Gallant is definitely conveying a message regarding the portrayal of love in the media. In fact, I think it is in a more general sense, of the social pressures of love. In the first paragraph, Carol describes an ideal scene of love which she believes is “what everyone expected”, and in the last paragraph, Howard was “seriously unsettled by the visit of one of his sisters, who advised him to marry some nice girl before it was too late”. In either case, there is a sense of pressure for these characters to fall in “love”, as well as the fact that society seems to define what “love” actually is. Furthermore, Gallant points out the association of love with age, as Carol “was under the illusion that in a short time she would be so old no one would ask her again”, while Howard was told to marry “before it was too late” by his sister. In both situations, it is apparent that both characters believe that love cannot be attained once they are old. But who is to say that one cannot love when they are old? In this sense, Gallant is criticizing the way society defines “love” and pressures people into falling into “love”, as well as the fact that society tends to associate love with youth.
Also, did anyone else notice Gallant’s symbolic use of flowers? Different types of flowers repeatedly come up across the text, such as in the first paragraph with “barrows of violets, acacias in flower”, and, more importantly, in the third paragraph with the simile of love to “geranium”. Gallant’s comparison of love to flowers could be Gallant’s method of pointing out how fragile the “love” between Howard and Carol is. Flowers, though they blossom in warm weather, are still very fragile and can easily die during winter. Thus, by comparing their love to a flower, Gallant is stating that their love is only superficial, and can easily be destroyed. Furthermore, we can interpret these flowers as a metonymy of spring or summer. Either way, it represents youth and vigor, as well as perhaps their infatuation with each other; however, winter will eventually arrive, which commonly symbolizes death. Therefore, this further reinforces Gallant’s belief that a shallow “love” such as this will die quickly and will not lead to anything. This is possibly another one of Gallant’s social commentaries, in that she is criticizing the superficial “love” that occurs so often in society.
Okay, so i purposely decided not to participate in communicating with the socratic circle because i was a complete idiot and i wasnt preprared at all for the circle. Here is what i have to say: Adding on to Mr. Pandaan's proposition on how Carol and Howard will just be "a person who fills in at dinner" for one another, i think that Mavis Gallant is describing how they weren't really meant to be together and that their feelings toward eachother would be similar to the feelings they would have with any other friend. Anyone agree? <3
I concur with Atsunori about the connotation to the fragileness of love has to with the longevity of flowers. Flowers could also display the love as a cliche, but after looking into the context, Atsunori's analysis seems more likely.
Jennica you spoke also about the cliche of the "perfect" proposal and I agree with you. Carol is looking to hard. But due to the fact that Howard is pressured into marriage early and has an awkward proposal to her, it surprises her, and she acknowledges the fact that he comes from strong financial backing and would provide for their family.
Also to the last sentence, about the person who fills in at dinner, although Jar's comment is liable I think there would be a more viable claim. Perhaps that is part of the pressure Howard feels? I am not sure.
I think both Carol and Howard choose to conform to society's view on love and marraige. The time this was made was in 1953 where both Carol and Howard fit the description of the perfect man or woman to marry. She IS looking too hard, relying on societies logic rather than her own. Howard is sober(showing self control and seroiusness),old(wiser),and reliable. While she believes this "love" they have will grow like a geranium flower, Howard only relies on her to act like his "housemaid." Howard is like the other men in his era, he is a bachelor that does not do domestic matters, he only looks for his wife to make him happy and feed him. They both were convinced to get married only because they ehad fears of not having a partner to love. They simply gave up like their parents. It says, "the fathers of Carol and Howard were both attorneys and both had been defeated in their one attempt to get elected a judge." This says their parents only tried ONCE. it's ironic that the children are like their parents. Like their fathers, they have no sense of judgement and are easily defeated. Instead of waiting and trying another relationship with someone they ACTUALLY love, they simply marry the other partner they have only known for three weeks.
Carol thinks that common interests are enough for a marraige, and I guess she does get that idea from the movies. And it seems like she's trying to justify her and her marriage to Howard when she lists all those similarities, similiarities that really only seem like a small part of them (& so they basically don't matter) to say that their marraige will turn out okay. "Common interest... was the true basis for happiness".It's like she's saying that even though they don't love each other, at least they share SOME things and so that should be enough to be happy. Howard is afraid that he'll be alone forever; when his sister came over and basically told him to hurry up and marry someone, he saw himself alone. So now, it's not really about love, it's just about having someone. So I guess they're both basically in the same position. Society expects them to be married already, but they're not. So it seems that they're just rushing things and forcing themselves to feel love because that's how they think things are supposed to be.
I agree with Jarlath in a sense, but on the other hand I don't necessarily think that Mavis Gallant is proposing that both Howard and Carol are unsuitable for eachother, but rather how their lack of awareness towards the decision they both committed to strengthens their similarities. I think that despite the fact that they both don't truly love eachother enough to make such an extreme decision, Gallant characterizes them undoubtingly similiar to the extent that they are both using one another to fill a void in their lives. Thus, making the two alike although compatible for the wrong reason. Additionally, I think that Carol and Howard do act like friends toward eachother but I've heard the quote "Love is a friendship set on fire" somewhere, which could or could not pertain to this situation. Oh, and if anyone took the PSAT and remembers the article that argued about the negative effects television has on society, don't you think that an example of misunderstood "love" such as Carol and Howard's relationship would have been a better proposition instead of their examples of sports and whatnot?
Most people in this conversation seem to agree that society creates a pressure upon Carol and Howard to get married. I certainly agree with this. Society pressures us into many things, and keeps us from doing many things as well. Society frowns upon those who remain single and do not form families. Sexual orientation and even the way one dresses are judged by society. Harold proposes to a woman he barely knows because of pressure from his sister. Carol is driven to accept a proposal from a man she had only known for "less than three weeks" due to societal constraints on what age marriage would be suitable and social status. Carol refused to marry a suitor because he was "an unsuitable medical student with no money and eight years of training to go." She may have been happier with the medical student, but because he was poor, he is not a suitable candidate for marriage. She would rather marry a man that she may have little in common with, with them both being "vaguely Protestant." Also, Howard "best of all, was sober." This is the best Carol thought of him, besides him having a steady salary. Gallant used this passage to express how society affects our lives and forces us to do things that are absurd, such as marrying someone we hardly know. Our own senses of logic are pushed aside when values of society are pressed upon us. Carol "was under the allusion that in a short time she would be so old no one would ask her again" for her hand in marriage. Social values of her time make her believe that her age will stop her from finding a husband.
I agree with Aabra that society does put a pressure for people to do things . Howard was pressured by his sister to marry before " it was too late " . He and carol had only known eachother for 3 weeks , not long enough i think in my opinion to have fallen in love and get married . Like we talked in class , woman want security and want to feel that a man can support them . Carol turned her first proposal down because the man was poor and still had 8 more years of medical school ahead . Unlike Howard who has in common with carol a steady job and a good income . I also can agree with what we discussed in class that society creates an illusion of what the love should be like creating strains in relationships . Movies like the notebook and other romace films , create a love that is close to impossible to obtain . Maybe , although carol and Howard have only known eachother for a few weeks and may not have click at first , could actually have a happy marriage , only the future can tell for them .
I agree with Aabra that Carol and Howard were forced to marry. In lines 16-17 it says "She was under the illusion that in a short time she would be so old no one would ask her again". We can predict that Carol is worried that her age will restrict her from getting married. In lines 71-72 says, "... visit of one of his sisters, who advised him to marry some nice girl before it was too late." shows us that he was forced to marry a girl he did not even truly love. He just married Carol to do all the housework and other work for him.
So Carol and Howard married but did not have true love between them. My question is, how does their marriage tie in with the title? It seems to me that Paris symbolizes love and other romantic stuff. Metaphorically speaking, The Other Paris symbolizes the opposite of love. It symbolizes not true love but fake love that this couple demonstrates. How do you guys think the marriage of Carol and Howard tie in to the title, "The Other Paris"?
So Carol & Howard are both just conforming to society. Back then, it wasn't about love, it was just about having a stable household. Howard was "suitable" because he was "sober, old enough to know his own mind, and absolutely reliable", so he was basically the perfect husband. Back then, they still depended on women to handle all the domestic chores, & that's basically what Howard needed; "unless he stumbled on a competent housemaid, nothing ever got done." So together, they'd have a stable life. & i guess back then, that was the big picture, not happiness, but just stablity. so even though there is no love, that wasn't important.
i was on the fasting, feasting passage. & they were talking about what the title meant. so what exactly is the title here supposed to mean? "the other paris".... i know paris is like, the city of love, but.... they're not in love. so is it just that? That as Paris, you're supposed to expect love, but as it happens, in THIS paris, there is no real love? Carol, in the beginning, she's picturing like herself IN LOVE, & IN PARIS. but she's in paris right now, but she's NOT in love. so for her, she's just in a whole other paris? what do you guys think?
I think Gallant titles the poem "The Other Paris," referring to the North American perception of France. As Alethea was saying in class, Quebec, Canada is considered the "second Paris" because it acts as a romantic getaway as well. But that's where the irony kicks in, because they're not even in love. As I stated above in my first post with lines 43-44. I'm not sure though, just saying!
In response to Hans comparison to the characters relationship to the the title, I have to agree. We sometimes associate the "Paris" with Romance /love. When changed to "The Other Paris" it means something more different; or the opposite (of love and romance). In other words,it compares to the characters "dilemma" of a relationship (Carols doubts and thoughts of the proposal, and Howards somewhat "blind love")
Another question; Does anyone see instances of Irony in the story? For example; Carol thinks that when she is proposed to, that she is surrounded by the beauty of Paris, rather than being proposed at a snack table. Another example is how the characters see each other in the relationship, Carols doubts contrasting to Howards confidence. So, are there anymore?
In response to Nicks comment about the couple being influenced into marriage, it is like Carol and Howard pressured into it. Just like in high school when people feel peer presured to do something. Since CArol feels like she was "under the illusion that in a short time she would be so old no one would ask her" she was pressured to say yes to Howard cause she thought no one else would ask her. Howard seemed whatever about the idea of marrying Carol. He just wanted someone to be his "housemaid" and wanted to find someone to to fill in at dinner so he wont be lonely. Also since he just asked CArol over a tuna-fish salad lunch it shows his dedication to the relationship. The two people are just using each other so they wont be lonely when they get older. Carol believed that the love would grow "after the right conditions".
I also agree with Jennicas view about the idea of the title being "The Other Paris" because many people believe that Paris is the place of romance, "the city of light", but in the excerpt it shows the love between Howard and Carol as the opposite. Just as a small little thing that can grow. Unlike love in Paris is very romantic and beautiful.
In addition with Nikko's comment, "The Other Paris" may also refer to love and how we do not quite see the harsh nature and consequences of love but only the fairy tale-side to it. Carol envisions love as what the general public sees, perfection.
Here is a quote that fits both situations of Howard and Carol: "Love: a temporary insanity, curable by marriage." -Ambrose Bierce
Notice how the quote does not define love specifically, but in a vague manner. Reference the quote as how both understood love. They both had "temporary" personal needs, and saw marriage as an opportunity to accomplish this need. There truly was no love, but in a general sense, they loved one another through their motivation of what they wanted.
In additional to Jennica's comment Peer pressure may be one great benefactor. Where back 1950's, a single 22 year old may be uncommon to today's standards. Perhaps peer pressure from friends and families, she grew desperate to the point that conditional love was the only option, for "no one had proposed to her before".
Okay, so I agree with what was said during my class in 4th period but I wasn't in that time to be able to say anything. Anyways the point is that I think that both Howard and Carol have just found each other by surprise. I also think that they have been desperately trying to find someone. For one, because like Abra said, there is a lot of pressure put on people by society to be a certain way or to even be married at a certain time in your life, especially during the time when this was wrote Carol would have already been too old to not be married at only twenty-two.
Another thing I thought was interesting was the almost total extreme of the vision that we get in the first paragraph about typically a "Hollywood" portrayed proposal and then the actuality of it.
Also, I think the rain has a certain significance that I haven't figured out yet, but like Karemy mentioned during my period it could be change.. I think that would make sense, but I'm not sure yet. Does anyone have any ideas?
Another thing is that I think both Harold and Carol think that their marriage will work because they have certain things in common and that they will be overall content spending their lives together. I don't think that the point of it was that they were both trying to find someone that could support one another but that they were both just settling for each other because they felt as if they were running out of time or that they would not find anyone better. Even possibly in Carol's case she had simply given up on love, true love that is.
"The Other Paris" seems to greatly express Mavis Gallant's negative perspective on bland forms of marriage. Assuming Gallant is trying to emphasize her disapproval of these types of marriages, I can't help but feel sympathetic towards married couples who do marry because of the pressures of society (that Aabra and Ariana have mentioned) and not because of the love between each other. Don't get me wrong, I do think marriage should be a huge commitment between two people who can support and love each other forever, but I also think in some cases (like that of "The Other Paris") marriage can be the extra push two people need to actually become closer and truly in love. Just saying, ha.
Uh, my question is, Do any you think that Carol will ever actually fall in love with Howard and vice versa?
I mean, Carol doesn't know a thing about love, except for what she learned in college and what she see's in the media. In fact, even if she does fall into love, I really don't think Carol will even know what she's feeling is love. She just envisions love as "perfect." I heard the priest at church once say that love isn't perfect. There's always going to be bumps in the road but that the couple has to be able to get over those bumps and move on.
Nick was 128 % right when he said they were influenced into the marriage. The society of that time made Carol believe she only had a few years before she would never be married. The same is probably true of Howard. She panicked now she rushed into a marriage she will not be ready for. To add to my "bump in the road" comment, Carol is speeding down Love Road, and when she hits the bump, she will go flying.
To my question, I think no because if Carol thinks love is perfect, she will think that love will all of sudden happen after the wedding. The same goes for Howard, who apparently is just as clueless about love as Carol is. The first bump they hit will the hard reality check for them.
I like Adrians comment about love "Love: a temporary insanity, curable by marriage." -Ambrose Bierce It relates to the excerpt very well because Carol and Howard do no love each other right now, but when they get married they believe the love will grow and change.
jrguarnes i think the year DOES have a significance. i belive Carol and Harold fit the characterstics that in 1953 people looked for in a partner. They want someone reliable, wise, and has control. While women were only asked to keep the house clean and orderly and to keep the kids and husband happy.
yes, i agree with leana, how the year plays a significant role in influencing how the story is projected. in the 50's the typical family was one of where the women were looked upon as to take care of the house while the men were the main sources of income. this is seen directly in the story,as in lines 30-31, stating that Carol and Howard had "similar economic backgrounds, (and) financial security". it is also seen in line 41 where Howard is described as an economist. the image of a man being the main source of income is pretty much essential in society's cliched form of relationship and love, even seen today.many people care not about the love, but whether or not they would be able to be financially stable. this was especially true during the time of the 50's, where people were amidst a recession, and people were desperate for money. this same reasoning can also apply to modern times, because we are in a recession ourselves. another reason i think Carol accepted the proposal so quickly is also the fact of how paranoid she was. in lines 16-18 it is directly stated that "she was under the illusion that in a short time she would be so old no one would ask her again (to marry.)" many people looking for "love" are usually just trying to use their partner. this excerpt is a direct example of that statement.
On Darien's comment on the irony in the story, I agree that there are a few instances of that. At the beginning of the story there is Carol's imagined proposal of that "involved all at once the Seine, moonlight, barrows of violets, acacias in flowers..." Then in the next paragraph we are told of the true proposal, where Harold "proposed at lunch, over a tuna-fish salad." I agree with Darien that this creates irony. I think that it may be a foil as well. When we read the first paragraph, we imagine the stereotypical romantic scenery. Then in the next paragraph we are told that the proposal actually occured over lunch. That makes Harold's proposal seem even more dreary with the foil. Another example of irony in the passage is what Harold feels when Carol says yes to his proposal. Harold "alternated between a state of numbness and a state of self-congratulation." He doesn't feel ecstatic that she accepted, but rather proud that he asked. Most people would be more joyous over the person saying yes. Carol's idea of love is ironic in a sense. Most find that love is something unpredictable, yet Carol uses "great efficiency" to fall in love. She blames random things for the denial of her love. "She was often convinced that she would fall deeply in love with Howardif only it would stop raining." Carol believes that the weather is stopping her from falling in love. Not many would come to that assumption.
In addition, Gallant treats love as logic through lines 50-54, "Given a good climate, enough money, and a pair of good-natured, intelligent (her college lectures had stressed this) people..." As discussed in class, love acts a formula in this story since it's not genuine. Carol is convincing herself that she will fall in love with Howard, marrying out of practicality, "Undaunted, she waited for better times (line 58)."
Furthermore, there is more I would like to add on to what I've said on them trying to fit in with the "standards of society." Gallant emphasizes the primary function of women in marriage, "Unless he stumbled on a competent housemaid, nothing ever get done" caring for the house, rather than demonstrating love. In the 1950's, this was ideal for marriage as well as Howard's character, "sober, old enough to know his own mind, and absolutely reliable (lines 39-40)."
So, everyone seems to agree that Howard and Carol were pressured into marriage by society. I doubt they will ever fall in love and their attitudes, I think, are the prefect recipe for marital failure. I hope they call off the engagement soon. I think Mavis Gallant is trying to voice her disapproval of the way people thought of marriage and love in the 1950s, but at the same time she focuses more on Carol and Howard's inability to challenge what society has told them. They both realize there is something wrong with their engagement; Gallant writes that Howard "alternated between between a state of numbness and a state of self-congratulation" following his proposal, and Carol tries to reassure herself by looking back at college lectures on marriage. Here Gallant reveals Howard and Carol's unhappiness with their love lives but she doesn't feel bad for them. In fact, Gallant seems frustrated at them for allowing themselves to be so influenced by society. So what if your sister tells you to marry? Why allow yourself to be cast under the illusion that you are too old? Instead of following their instincts and seeking a more genuine relationship, Howard and Carol give in to society's pressures. Howard looks forward to having Carol be his maid-like social accessory, while Carol is thrilled to know that Howard will offer her financial stability. It is ironic, however, that these two think their marriage is bound to succeed when their personalities and aspirations are, in reality, so incompatible. While Carol thinks she knows everything about the inner workings of a successful marriage, she is not aware that Howard couldn't care less about marriage and that his proposal to her was "quite out of character," having disregarded his "uncommonly cautious" nature.
I agree with Aabra reply to Darien's question because the comparisons Aabra makes are opposite examples. Caraol's image of a proposal consisted of romantic flowers and a beutiful background, but shifted to an odd proposal during lunch over a tuna salad. I also feel that the story contains humor since Carol is being proposed over a tuna salad. I feel that the proposal has alot more meaning. We know by the first paragraph that Carol has a sense of what love should be which was romantic and beutiful. The actual proposal was not romantic or beutiful but just strange. This gives further evidence that the two are not supposed to be married and do not share love. Another piece of evidence that shows they are not supposed to be married was in the end of the last paragraph where it says that the two celebrated using wine instead of champage because they were too diffident to suggest it. Carol and Howard would have enjoyed champagne over wine but they did not know each other well enough and was diffident to even suggest it. This is huge because it shows that they are shy with each other and yet do not even know each others similarities.
"Do any you think that Carol will ever actually fall in love with Howard and vice versa?" -Chris Johnson
Carol and Howard will not fall in love but just show the image they love each other. Howard and Carol are only doing it so they have the image of being married. It would be cruel to say that they will not fall in love but it seems so unlikely. There is more reasons why this couple should get a divorce versus this couple staying married.
When reading through these comments I pretty much agreed with everything that was said.
Especially the repeated notion that both Howard and Carol were pressured by society to marry each other as quickly as they did. Carol being under the impression that soon no one would ask to marry her, the sad part being that she's only 22. With Howard, the push his sister gave him. By telling him to "marry some nice girl before it was to late". Sad for Howard because, "His sudden proposal to Carol had been quite out of character"
Concerning the Symbolism of Flowers Gallant uses mentioned by Atsunori. I believe his explanation goes along well with what the story is trying to convey.
On what BrEg0oT said, I definitely agree with what he said. When I think back to the 1950's, I realize that families were extremely important. Carol as a woman is easily scared by the fact that she may never have a man supporting her. Especially in the 1950's when it was a troubling time. Then Howard comes along, with a sturdy economic background and asks to marry her. She says yes, because she feels that he can easily provide for her. She must know of his work considering they both work together, in the American Government Agency.
To answer Chris Johnson's answer: Carol and Howard are very unlikely to fall in love with each other. They are only together because of their own needs and similarities. The title "The Other Paris" hints that their love will always be fake love. Also they were both forced to marry. Howard's sister gave him pressure to marry someone quickly before it was too late and Carol wanted to marry someone not for true love but for stable living conditions. Another thing to look at is the date. It was written in 1953 and at that time people married young. This was probably why Carol wanted to marry quickly before she bacame too old. There is a slight chance that they will find true love through out their lives but it is ver unlikely.
In lines 56-58 it says "She was often convinced she would fall deeply in love with Howard if only it would stop raining." Why does Carol think that she will fall in love with Howard if it stopped raining? What does the Rain symbolize?
In response to J.R., yes, the date it was wrote has a lot to deal with the way marriage was perceived during this time. During that time Carol would have already been old and would think that she was done with. That is why it seems like it's not that she just wants someone to support her but that she doesn't want to end up alone and she is afraid that her time is running short. Most people in the late 50's were getting married early, like straight out of high school still. It was a very different time and so marriages were still sometimes viewed also as a way to higher your level in society even.
Contuining from my discussion I was wondering why Carol believed that weather would affect wheather or not she would fall in love. As it says in lines 46-50 it says " Love required only the right conditions, like a geranium. It would wither exposed to bad weather or in dismal surroundings; indeed, Carol rated the chances of love in a cottage or a furnished room at zero." I Think that Carol and Howard can find love and be happy together if given time to get to know one another and find an interest in each other instead of getting marry just to get married. I believe that Howards proposing to Carol was rushed beacause he barley even knows her yet only doesn't even love her or possibly like her. I think Carol should ignore what she's learning in her college lectures beacause as it says in lines 50-53 " Given a good climate, enough money, and a pair of good-natured intelligent (her college lectures had stressed this) people, one had only to sit back and watch it grow. I think that u should marry someone if u truly love them, even though they might not make a good amount of money, or beacause the weather isnt perfect, or even if there not intelligent as you, people always figure a way out to make things work.
Adding onto Nikko's comment on how the Title can reflect the story: Paris is a vision of a perfect love, a place where true love between individuals is genuine and all real. Now when the title is placed as "The Other Paris", it is simply referring to the opposite of Paris, the opposite of this true love we see. Carol and Harold are complete opposites when it comes to their views and understandings on love and relationships. We see this whole side of the perfect relationship, even though they are supposedly towards a "marriage that shouldnt fail".
In response to Chris' question about them ever falling in love, I dont believe they will. I think they could possibly become very good friends. But as far as we can tell from this passage, they dont have much attraction to each other or other elements that are necessary to be in love with someone. Unless either one of them finds another person to love or they decide they are not content in a loveless marriage I think they would stay together because of another pressure from society. Though divorce rates are up, I don't think anyone really looks at it as a "good" or even okay thing. Wether it is because of your religion, or just moral beliefs, no one gets married to get divorced, so I think both Carol and Harold would stay together because of that reason also. I mean there is a possibility they could eventually fall in love, but it just doesn't seem probable.
I agree with Miguel, Howard and Carol are definitely on the path of divorce. The two are uncomfortable with each other, and you cannot commit to being married if you have any doubts. When you consider getting married you should feel at ease with your significant other and feel no pressure to suggest champagne instead of wine. Carol has the impression that love is two people that are well suited for each other. Howard and Carol might have the same job, but their interests differ greatly. This couple isn't falling in love, they're SETTLING for each other. Both have the mindset that if they don't marry soon, it will be too late. Carol is being influenced by the media, and Howard by his family.
Malvis Gallant used the introduction to add a sense or ridiculousness to the passage. Describing Carol's fantasy of the flowers and the Eiffel Tower at first sound so elegant. Until she bluntly states, "actually, he proposed at lunch, over a tuna fish salad." And the way she characterizes them, it seems like she's trying to make a fool out of them. Carol believes that her feelings for Howard will change after the weather changes? HA. i don't think so.
First of all, i cant believe mark gave me a C. Anyways, i noticed a bunch of obvious irony in "the other passage" that amazingly no one in the second group ever pointed out! throughout the passage, Carol emphasizes her desire to marry someone "intelligent", but the author seems to try a bit too hard throughout the whole passage to tell us that both Howard and Carol are complete idiots! one part that was especially stupid and funny was lines 56-58 where Carol trully believes she will fall in love with Howard if only it stopped raining! LOL are you kidding me!? i though she went to college or something...? Furthermore, Carol makes it clear she accepts Howard because he is "reliable". But in lines 67-68, it says "Unless he stumbled on a competent housemaid, nothing ever got done." sounds pretty reliable to me!(sarcasm). and this may be just me, but i noticed that Carol points outh that Howard is sober, but the whole marrige gives me the sense of being a sort of spontaneous marrige in Vegas(when people are usually not sober), based on the little amount of time the characters have known each other! So much irony!!!! oh and another random thing i noticed- both of their parents are attorneys, attorneys are known for lying, and Carol and Howard are both lying TO THEMSELVES by getting married with people they dont really love... just saying... the reason why the author uses so much irony is to show that he thinks marrige is often stupid, and unknowlegdeable. maybe the author had a bad experience, i dont know, but he clearly isnt a huge fan of the idea of marrige.
haha wow leo you have some interesting input. but yea the idea that carol blames the rain for her absence of love is ridiculous. and i never thought about the fact that both both their parents are attorneys (who are known for lying) that does make sense.
Reading through these comments, the most commonly talked about topics are that the passage was written in 1953, and that they were pressured into love. While I agree on the most part about how they were pressured, I believe we should strongly concentrate on the way the author Gallant wrote the passage, as that is what the prompt is asking for. While what the passage is saying is very important, we should see how the way he uses narrative voice and characterization to talk about society.
Everyone commented on how they are pressured into love, and we can conclude that Gallant is trying to say something about society. I 100% agree with Leo's view on the irony of Gallant. What I think, is that Gallant is being sadistic and displaying a perfect characterization of our society. Two "lovers" getting married for no absolute reason, except the wants of society. Because society craves the "perfect" background of people and good money status, Carol accepts to be engaged to Howard. Gallant comments on the absolute outrageousness of how the two people are getting married after knowing each other for three weeks! He is being ironic towards society. This love is what both lovers dislike and don't really want, but are only pressured into it by the cravings of society. the fact that "he proposed to her over tuna salad" as Keith said, is Gallant's way of poking fun at the situation.
Also one main point I would like to add is that Mavis Gallant is a female writer. Not male. This also shows how she would be more into the idea of perfect love and be against the way society pressures people to be married, as women of the time would, and probably still do, envision the "perfect proposal" (no offense intended.)
Ryosuke Takeuchi Per.3 So many new posts during the few minutes I typed this up O.o…
Sry if my post’s a bit off timing
On Han’s question about Carol and the rain: "She was often convinced she would fall deeply in love with Howard if only it would stop raining." Carol believes that love can only occur under the most perfect situations, meaning it cannot happen if there are any problems such as “bad weather.” She even believes falling in love is only for “intelligent people.” As for the symbolism, rain usually serves as a symbol that gives life, but can also be interpreted as negative ideas such as destruction. In this narrative, rain is symbolized in the latter definition, because it is an illusionary barrier for Carol’s love.
I wanted to comment on the essay’s prompt, which was: “explain how the author uses narrative voice and characterization to provide social commentary.” I couldn’t understand the literary part of this question, but I will comment on the second part, the social commentary of the author. I think Gallant wants to criticize the two genders in society and how they treat marriage. For females, she criticizes them because she believes women choose their partners based on their income, career, etc. too much. “He was an economist who had sense enough to attach himself to a corporation that continued to pay his salary during his loan to the government. There was no reason for the engagement or the marriage to fail,” Carol believes. Gallant criticizes males on how they marry in order to escape loneliness and laziness. “Before his engagement he had sometimes been lonely…Unless he stumbled on a competent housemaid, nothing ever got done.” Gallant uses this narrative to criticize the society in the 1950’s and the entire system of marriage.
I dont know if anyone has already said this but do you guys think think that in lines 25-30, it explains the reason why she said yes to Howard? i thought that Carol only said yes because she thought it was "right" due to her "helpful college lectures on marriage". What i don't understand is that why couldn't she just tell Howard that she wasn't ready if she was so unsure if she really "loved" him?
wow so many people have interesting opinions on this passage. and everytime i read a new entry i learn something else about it. i agree with ryosuke about how Gallant portrays marriage and WHY people get married. Women often choose men who are rich with nice houses and cars and other materialistic things. Men marry to escape being alone and have someone to take care of them and their home the rest of their lives. (this is just what the author believes, i'm not saying i agree with it). But now that ryosuke mentioned it, i reread the passage and it does seem that way.
The reason that Carol accepted his proposal is that society was pressuring her into marriage as well as Howard. The short time period of three weeks shows Gallant's disapproval of the pressures of society. She(Gallant) is saying how true love is important. I completely agree with you that the 25-30 lines are the reason. You could also add in the fact that the whole paragraph adds to that sense. The last sentence of the paragraph "there was no reason for the engagement or the marriage to fail" is obviously conveying Gallant's sadistic tone.
In response to Jar's question, "What i don't understand is that why couldn't she just tell Howard that she wasn't ready if she was so unsure if she really "loved" him?"
In lines 16-18 it says "She was under the illusion that in a short time she would be so old no one would ask her again. She accepted at once..." Carol was so scared of never getting another opportunity to get married and meet society's expectations, that she accepted without a second thought. Likewise, it was a very irresponsible act by Howard to propose to Carol in such a short time span of three weeks of knowing her, but i guess you can't blame the poor guy for being pressured so much by his sister's advice, which was very cruel and unnecessary.
Yes, i was just about to answer my own question with the same response. Not to sound mean or anything, but she could've been desperate to find someone soon; and the more she worries about how old she is turning and how fast time is running out, the more desperate she gets. She wanted to find someone to marry without even recognizing if it was "true love" or "meant to be".
Adding to Bryan's response about Carol. But she's barely 22 years old she has a whole life ahead of her to find true love and be happy with someone she loves instead of marrying Howard because she is pressured by society. I would understand if they knew each other and cared for one another then yea its compeltely understandable but they hardly know each other so I don't know why she would be pressured by society.
@alexblas She's pressured because she feels that she NEEDS to be married at her "ancient" age. She thinks she needs to be married as soon as possible because of the pressure society places.
Ok after reading what you said earlier about the characterization I agree on what you are saying about Carol. I see why she needs to marry at an early age because of the whole society thing. I think Gallant made the story this way because like you said Bryan "Two "lovers" getting married for no absolute reason, except the wants of society. Because society craves the "perfect" background of people and good money status" I also have my belief in this reason how being pressured can make you do things without thinking.
well maybe 22 WAS the average age to get married back then. i dont know what the life expectancy was at that time but it couldnt have been the same as it is today. possibly a few years younger. and if you think about it, the average age to get married nowadays is what, 25-28? some might believe 30 is too late. thats only a few years away from 22 so maybe she's not a total idiot and actually has a point.
@bryan jeong i totally agree with what you are saying about how she thinks she is "running out of time" because, bringing back what @Aiheartsu said, "Most people in the late 50's were getting married early, like straight out of high school still. It was a very different time and so marriages were still sometimes viewed also as a way to higher your level in society even." It connects to what @Ariheartsu said about people getting married earlier back in the late 50's because Carol, being "ONLY" 22 worrys that she'll never find anyone she can marry before she dies. Now-a-days people could get married in ages as old as 30s-40s. That is probably why @AlexBlas was unsure about Carol being pressured when she is only 22; therefore, both of you guys, @Bryan Jeong and @Alex Blas, have correct opinons.
I did some reasearch and the average life expectancy in 1950 for a European was around 68. I dont really think we can consider that Carol accepted the proposal from Howard because of a short life span. If they actually do get married, they still have plenty time to get a divorce and remarry and start a new family.
@Jar yes I completely agree with you. But the only reason the author mentions the ages is to satirize how she is so young, yet society is pressuring her into marriage early. @Krietz Yes I also agree with you.
I see the dilema with Carol's age. The 50's are completely different then today's society. Today, people around the age of 40 could still be searching for love. I think that Carol was so eager to get married before it was too late because opportunities for women weren't as available as they are today. I think women were dependent on their husbands in those days in which he was the one who made most or all of the important decisions in the household. Women primarily stayed at home in order to portray the role of obidient wife or caring mother. If a women was to be alone in times like these, it would be difficult to be taken seriously, which is probably what Carol feared (other than not finding true love).
which is why you shouldn't be pressured into being married if you have no feelings for a person and just because you are being pressured by society. Even though it was back in the 1950s like @Aiheartsu was saying that people were getting married for no reason could probaley jusify the fact that Carol got married Howard for the H E double hockey sticks.
Gallant uses direct characterization in her short story to tell us the personality of Howard. "Howard had no notion of any of this. His sudden proposal to Carol had been quite out of character- he was uncommonly cautious- and he alternated between a state of numbness and a state of self congratulation." (Lines 59-63) He is completely blind towards Carol's aspirations of falling in love. Howard's sister advised him to get married, and he seized the opportunity with Carol with no intention of discovering love. Being "uncommonly cautious" means that he has a knack for jumping into situations without thinking things through. Since a proposal is a big step leading into marriage, Howard is still shocked that he is actually willing to committ himself to a woman that he has known for only three weeks! The author also tells us that "... he was discontented with his bachelor households...Unless he stumbled on a competent housemaid, nothing ever got done." (Lines 65-68) If he is unhappy with how dirty his home is, then Howard should go back and live with him mom. Howard expects that Carol will be doing the housework, but if she went to college then she obviously wants to be apart of the workforce.
someone has very strong feelings towards howard haha but i agree! if you want someone to clean up after you go live with your mommy! dont rely on your wife to do everything for you
In response to Chris' question of course they would love each other. As I said before during class, if both were given just the right amount of time to get know each other more, rather than rely on that small 3 week period, of course their relationship would work out properly.
My question is, why do you guys think Howard, out of all the people, chose Carol? I mean, he certainly was not desperate as Carol was. Sure they both had the same religious beliefs and similar occupations, but that does not necessarily contribute to love. So why exactly did he choose her? Obviously he needed a housemaid to pick after him, but does that really require a high standard person as Carol? It does not require a lot of work to find a suitable person who can meet the requirements of a housemaid, more so hire one.
replying to adrian alonzo, he didnt "choose" carol. he "settled" for her. in the passage it says that his sister told him to "marry some nice girl before it was too late." so carol came along and so howard was probably thinking "hm..she seems nice. i guess she will have to do." but i dont know. that's my opinion on the subject.
ummm wow? did my post really erase because i didnt make an account first? and it wouldnt even let me copy and paste... i want to give up and go to sleep, but i know i'll regret it.. so here i go AGAIN.
let me test it out first to make sure it wont happen AGAIN.
I think it's silly how Howard and Carol got married in an instant, without building a friendship first. They barely knew each other for about only three weeks and they weren't even in love with each other. Anyways, I find the story kind of ironic, because it seems like they had mixed feelings for each other.. or i don't know but it seems like the story went from lies at the beginning to the real truth at the end. For example, in the beginning when they were "celebrating" their proposal, Howard had ordered a bottle of wine when they both would have preferred a bottle of champagne instead. This just shows a lack of communication between the two of them and building up a friendship first would have been for the better for both of them. Anyways, they married without the true love and when they separated they both seemed "okay"/neutral about it.. they didn't seem "heartbroken"/sad or mad about the situation. Because of this, it just proves that they were never really truly in love to begin with. I believe that maybe the reason for them getting married was because of their fear of being alone and not finding that significant other before they turned "too old". They both probably thought time would run out for them to get married, especially Carol. She probably felt pressured because like in the story, "she was under the illusion that in a short time she would be so old no one would ask her again." But I personally believe you are never too old to get married, because true love comes at its own time and it seemed as if Carol was trying to force herself to love Howard.. and also maybe seemed as if she was hoping that maybe after they got married she would finally fall in love with him, but that obviously didn't happen. As for Howard, sometimes I assume maybe he just wanted a housewife? I'm not sure why else he would be in such of a rush to get married...
The theme here I believe is that love is just suppose to happen, you CAN NOT make it happen because love will eventually find you no matter how old you are, your time will come. You're never too old to find your true love.
-vanessa drouet, period 3
*the first post I had written seemed more thought out, longer, and better explained. agh. I really can't believe I had to do this again.
I agree with the idea of Howard settling for Carol, since he actually needed someone to help at home. He wanted someone reliable to help him get things done at home.
I also think that Carol seems to be more of twin souls, but Howard is more of a opposites attract kind of guy, since he wanted help at being organized.This is one of women's many wonderful characteristics that Howard seemed to not pocess. So, again, he settled for Carol.
It doesnt sound that Harold needs help at home (possible though) but probably since his sisters have "advised him to marry some nice girl before its too late."( in other words, goaded into proposing to Carol)
Other than that, He must really like Carol, but does not have reason except 'you'll just be a person who fills in at dinner." (Another example: "Howard saw the picture and was deeply move by it")
In short: He is blindly in love
So, could harold be feeling something else than love?
It seems like Gallant has an issue with the way TV and movies portray marriage. I'm not sure if she is for the idea of love being the center, or if she thinks that it is overrated. I think that she wants her readers to know that marriage can be happy with or without love.
Carol seems like someone who is caught up in work and only believes things that are written in books. Since there is a small section that talks about what she learned in a college course about marriage, it proves that she is kind of a bookworm kind of person. Howard seems like he is super shy and scared out of his shorts at the idea of marriage, but does it so he doesn't end up "'...a person who fills in at dinner.'" I don't think he had much of a reason to propose except for the pressure from his family and the fear of being alone for the rest of his life. I think the the beautiful scene in the beginning had some sort of symbolism in it. The beginning is sort of like a fairy tale wedding; the kind of wedding everyone wants. As the story continues the image of a beautiful wedding gets messed up because you start to think that maybe the marriage will fail no matter what they say. I don't think that either of them are in love. They're just forcing themselves to feel love and it doesn't work that way.
I think I kind of agree with Caitlin in tha Gallant is trying to show an opinion in a way that poses questions to something that we may otherwise not question if we encountered a similar situation in our life. But I kind of think that there is more to it than that. Maybe it has nothing to do with marraige at all. It seems to me like it has more to do with the way people prefer to make decisions; based on logic, because it simple. I think a point is being made to draw attention to the fact that maybe whats comfotable for us or easy for us, isnt always what we're going to appreciate in the long run. You never know what is goig to happen between Carol and Howard a few years down the road. Maybe they will have enough in common to grow their love. Or maybe, they will realize that they dont have feelings for each other and all they will ever be is too people who's lives are easy to mesh together. It seems like maybe the passge was to provoke questioning about things that may otherwise seem natural.
SO SORRY I'M LATE! plus same thing happened to me that happened to Vanessa D. okay here we go.
It is an important aspect that this is written in narrative voice. Readers can get the feel of what the characters are actually thinking. I'm darn sure that Carol had no idea that Howard parshly married her because he is afraid to live alone (like some men in society) and also that he needs a maidlike woman to be with him because he can't get anything done without one. Along with the fact that he wants someone to make food for him- Gallant represents Howard as men, not just him. This social commmentary is based on how men kind of use women. NOT ALL MEN THOUGH. Another way narrative voice was helpful was when he admitted that he didn't know why he even proposed! The social commentary for women is that they are naive. All we want is love love love. According to Carol, as long as a couple has things in common- you will live happily ever after. And if not, you can just go to college and learn allllll about it. Another social commentary on women is their relience on men's mula. Which is obvilusly mostly true in society.
Alot of people are saying that Carol and Howard found each other and they are happy or could become happy. But i dont believe that. i wrote on my paper about how i was really disappointed as to how they viewed love, like they could magically learn how to fake that inexplicable feeling that so many want to feel. i feel like she just gave up! they jumped at it to quickly and are playing it too safe. She doesnt seem to care if shes inlove as long as shes in a stable relationship, Then she says that its the weather thats not right, when really its not there. i believe that if love isnt there its very hard to develop! Being afraid of being alone is not a good reason to settle for someone becuase your never too old to fall in love.
:) I know that I am not a part of this class (I believe only memebers are answering) but I can take in both ways of the portrayal of this excerpt. What i was thinking is that he may just as well be using an ironic tone describing how imperfect and dull their marriage would be if they married for social status. Considering it is written in 1950 (though i am not sure) i believeeee that they looked for social status, not love. Then again, i don't know my time periods. The remark about the flowers: i can take it as you explain it but also i know that flowers need sun and water to blossom. I could take it that the sun and water could amount to love needed for a couple to blossom. (Now that i think of it) it can also be symbolic of financial stability that is needed in order to keep the relationship intact. I am curious is there any definite explanation the author gave? i am curious, what do you guys think?
All right so i looked it up and apparently there was this huge thing on pressure of getting married for women in the 1950s. Thus i will write my essay on the other team :). The way that he speaks of the characters and how even the names are "typical" portrays a somewhat ironic tone as to show how he dislike the whole idea of marriage without love. He wants there to be a special connection. He is going against typical society, which is what many writers do.
Adding on to what I said in class, I was also wondering if anyone thought that Mavis Gallant was trying to imply something on American Media and how it influences decisions that have to be made. For example in lines 14-16, it says "no one had proposed to her before, except an unsuitable medical student with no money and eight years training still to go." The key word being unsuitable, because who defines what is suitable, besides the media? Also, in lines 27-29, it clearly says, "that the illusion of love was a blight imposed by the film industry." It straight out says film industry, which definitely influences decisions. Does anyone else think that Gallant is saying something about the media? Furthermore, on the question that Adrianne started the seminar with, I think that the last line in the passage is simply a picture of dinnertime, and how Carol and Howard will just be "a person who fills in at dinner" for one another. Does anyone think its anything else?
ReplyDeleteOn Nick's proposal on Mavis Gallant trying to portray an opinion on television, I agree with him.Gallant may be trying to show the negative influences of TV on American society.Carol's college courses teach her that the film industry is "responsible for the high rate of divorce".With most people, they dream of falling in love and the romantic moments grounded into our minds by television.Even in the music industy, love is a major subject.These songs also speak about finding that one special person.This subconsciously beats into our mind the desire to find the love that music and television illustrate.When people cannot find the love they see on the television, divorce becomes a popular alternative.This idea explains why Carol believes that "a common interest" is all one needs for a good relationship.Rather than look for television's love, Carols choses to build love from common interests.
ReplyDeleteOn the last line of the excerpt, I believe that it shows Howard's motive for his proposal.The image that Howard sees after speaking to his sister drives him to his "out of character" proposal to Carol.This sentence enables us to see a reason for his marriage, while most of the excerpt of the passage is devoted to Carol's opinion.
I also want to add a question that came to mind after reading the passage. The first line of the paragraph that starts talking about Howard confused me a bit.The line reads, "Howard had no notion of any of this." To me, this sentence means that Howard has no intention of falling in love, which may make things difficult for Carol.What does everyone else think this sentence implies?
ReplyDeleteIn regards to what Nick posted, I agree with what he pointed out. It also adds to the criticism on the concepts of love and marriage through out the 1950's, and how they are trying to fit in with the standards of society -- adding on to what was said in class. Through narrative voice and irony, Gallant expresses her disapproval for the bland form of marriage common during the early era and America's failure in challenging it as well. Like in lines 43-44, it is ironic how it's stated, "there was no reason for the engagement or marriage to fail" when it is obvious it DOES have a reason; loveless! To make a further comment on what I think Asseret said, the two are trying to force themselves to have a common interest. The two are "gravely embarrassed" as said in line 38 to discuss their religious beliefs because they are afraid of how society will perceive them if they discuss something other than their boring lives.
ReplyDeleteAdditionally, on what I said about living to the standards of society, in lines 15-16, "an unsuitable medical student," this indicates that Carol is more likely listening to society than her own instincts. She might of been in love with this man, but because he wasn't an ideal stereotype of what a man is supposed to be, with a job and $$$$, she chooses to be with Howard. A man who she has no interest in whatsoever.
ReplyDeleteAlso on what I said referring to Gallant's narrative voice, he opens the story with a cliché romantic scene (also what Asseret said?) Carol imagines their date being this way, but it is the complete opposite. This shows the contrast between Carol's secret wish for a romantic scene between Howard and her, and the pathetic reality.
ReplyDeleteIn regards to what Nick and Aabra said, Gallant is definitely conveying a message regarding the portrayal of love in the media. In fact, I think it is in a more general sense, of the social pressures of love. In the first paragraph, Carol describes an ideal scene of love which she believes is “what everyone expected”, and in the last paragraph, Howard was “seriously unsettled by the visit of one of his sisters, who advised him to marry some nice girl before it was too late”. In either case, there is a sense of pressure for these characters to fall in “love”, as well as the fact that society seems to define what “love” actually is. Furthermore, Gallant points out the association of love with age, as Carol “was under the illusion that in a short time she would be so old no one would ask her again”, while Howard was told to marry “before it was too late” by his sister. In both situations, it is apparent that both characters believe that love cannot be attained once they are old. But who is to say that one cannot love when they are old? In this sense, Gallant is criticizing the way society defines “love” and pressures people into falling into “love”, as well as the fact that society tends to associate love with youth.
ReplyDeleteAlso, did anyone else notice Gallant’s symbolic use of flowers? Different types of flowers repeatedly come up across the text, such as in the first paragraph with “barrows of violets, acacias in flower”, and, more importantly, in the third paragraph with the simile of love to “geranium”. Gallant’s comparison of love to flowers could be Gallant’s method of pointing out how fragile the “love” between Howard and Carol is. Flowers, though they blossom in warm weather, are still very fragile and can easily die during winter. Thus, by comparing their love to a flower, Gallant is stating that their love is only superficial, and can easily be destroyed. Furthermore, we can interpret these flowers as a metonymy of spring or summer. Either way, it represents youth and vigor, as well as perhaps their infatuation with each other; however, winter will eventually arrive, which commonly symbolizes death. Therefore, this further reinforces Gallant’s belief that a shallow “love” such as this will die quickly and will not lead to anything. This is possibly another one of Gallant’s social commentaries, in that she is criticizing the superficial “love” that occurs so often in society.
Okay, so i purposely decided not to participate in communicating with the socratic circle because i was a complete idiot and i wasnt preprared at all for the circle. Here is what i have to say:
ReplyDeleteAdding on to Mr. Pandaan's proposition on how Carol and Howard will just be "a person who fills in at dinner" for one another, i think that Mavis Gallant is describing how they weren't really meant to be together and that their feelings toward eachother would be similar to the feelings they would have with any other friend. Anyone agree? <3
I concur with Atsunori about the connotation to the fragileness of love has to with the longevity of flowers. Flowers could also display the love as a cliche, but after looking into the context, Atsunori's analysis seems more likely.
ReplyDeleteJennica you spoke also about the cliche of the "perfect" proposal and I agree with you. Carol is looking to hard. But due to the fact that Howard is pressured into marriage early and has an awkward proposal to her, it surprises her, and she acknowledges the fact that he comes from strong financial backing and would provide for their family.
Also to the last sentence, about the person who fills in at dinner, although Jar's comment is liable I think there would be a more viable claim. Perhaps that is part of the pressure Howard feels? I am not sure.
I think both Carol and Howard choose to conform to society's view on love and marraige. The time this was made was in 1953 where both Carol and Howard fit the description of the perfect man or woman to marry. She IS looking too hard, relying on societies logic rather than her own. Howard is sober(showing self control and seroiusness),old(wiser),and reliable. While she believes this "love" they have will grow like a geranium flower, Howard only relies on her to act like his "housemaid." Howard is like the other men in his era, he is a bachelor that does not do domestic matters, he only looks for his wife to make him happy and feed him. They both were convinced to get married only because they ehad fears of not having a partner to love. They simply gave up like their parents. It says, "the fathers of Carol and Howard were both attorneys and both had been defeated in their one attempt to get elected a judge." This says their parents only tried ONCE. it's ironic that the children are like their parents. Like their fathers, they have no sense of judgement and are easily defeated. Instead of waiting and trying another relationship with someone they ACTUALLY love, they simply marry the other partner they have only known for three weeks.
ReplyDeleteCarol thinks that common interests are enough for a marraige, and I guess she does get that idea from the movies. And it seems like she's trying to justify her and her marriage to Howard when she lists all those similarities, similiarities that really only seem like a small part of them (& so they basically don't matter) to say that their marraige will turn out okay. "Common interest... was the true basis for happiness".It's like she's saying that even though they don't love each other, at least they share SOME things and so that should be enough to be happy.
ReplyDeleteHoward is afraid that he'll be alone forever; when his sister came over and basically told him to hurry up and marry someone, he saw himself alone. So now, it's not really about love, it's just about having someone.
So I guess they're both basically in the same position. Society expects them to be married already, but they're not. So it seems that they're just rushing things and forcing themselves to feel love because that's how they think things are supposed to be.
I agree with Jarlath in a sense, but on the other hand I don't necessarily think that Mavis Gallant is proposing that both Howard and Carol are unsuitable for eachother, but rather how their lack of awareness towards the decision they both committed to strengthens their similarities. I think that despite the fact that they both don't truly love eachother enough to make such an extreme decision, Gallant characterizes them undoubtingly similiar to the extent that they are both using one another to fill a void in their lives. Thus, making the two alike although compatible for the wrong reason. Additionally, I think that Carol and Howard do act like friends toward eachother but I've heard the quote "Love is a friendship set on fire" somewhere, which could or could not pertain to this situation. Oh, and if anyone took the PSAT and remembers the article that argued about the negative effects television has on society, don't you think that an example of misunderstood "love" such as Carol and Howard's relationship would have been a better proposition instead of their examples of sports and whatnot?
ReplyDeleteMost people in this conversation seem to agree that society creates a pressure upon Carol and Howard to get married. I certainly agree with this. Society pressures us into many things, and keeps us from doing many things as well. Society frowns upon those who remain single and do not form families. Sexual orientation and even the way one dresses are judged by society. Harold proposes to a woman he barely knows because of pressure from his sister. Carol is driven to accept a proposal from a man she had only known for "less than three weeks" due to societal constraints on what age marriage would be suitable and social status. Carol refused to marry a suitor because he was "an unsuitable medical student with no money and eight years of training to go." She may have been happier with the medical student, but because he was poor, he is not a suitable candidate for marriage. She would rather marry a man that she may have little in common with, with them both being "vaguely Protestant." Also, Howard "best of all, was sober." This is the best Carol thought of him, besides him having a steady salary. Gallant used this passage to express how society affects our lives and forces us to do things that are absurd, such as marrying someone we hardly know. Our own senses of logic are pushed aside when values of society are pressed upon us. Carol "was under the allusion that in a short time she would be so old no one would ask her again" for her hand in marriage. Social values of her time make her believe that her age will stop her from finding a husband.
ReplyDeletesharon rojas - period 1
ReplyDeleteI agree with Aabra that society does put a pressure for people to do things . Howard was pressured by his sister to marry before " it was too late " . He and carol had only known eachother for 3 weeks , not long enough i think in my opinion to have fallen in love and get married . Like we talked in class , woman want security and want to feel that a man can support them . Carol turned her first proposal down because the man was poor and still had 8 more years of medical school ahead . Unlike Howard who has in common with carol a steady job and a good income . I also can agree with what we discussed in class that society creates an illusion of what the love should be like creating strains in relationships . Movies like the notebook and other romace films , create a love that is close to impossible to obtain . Maybe , although carol and Howard have only known eachother for a few weeks and may not have click at first , could actually have a happy marriage , only the future can tell for them .
I agree with Aabra that Carol and Howard were forced to marry. In lines 16-17 it says "She was under the illusion that in a short time she would be so old no one would ask her again". We can predict that Carol is worried that her age will restrict her from getting married. In lines 71-72 says, "... visit of one of his sisters, who advised him to marry some nice girl before it was too late." shows us that he was forced to marry a girl he did not even truly love. He just married Carol to do all the housework and other work for him.
ReplyDeleteSo Carol and Howard married but did not have true love between them. My question is, how does their marriage tie in with the title?
It seems to me that Paris symbolizes love and other romantic stuff. Metaphorically speaking, The Other Paris symbolizes the opposite of love. It symbolizes not true love but fake love that this couple demonstrates. How do you guys think the marriage of Carol and Howard tie in to the title, "The Other Paris"?
So Carol & Howard are both just conforming to society. Back then, it wasn't about love, it was just about having a stable household. Howard was "suitable" because he was "sober, old enough to know his own mind, and absolutely reliable", so he was basically the perfect husband. Back then, they still depended on women to handle all the domestic chores, & that's basically what Howard needed; "unless he stumbled on a competent housemaid, nothing ever got done." So together, they'd have a stable life. & i guess back then, that was the big picture, not happiness, but just stablity. so even though there is no love, that wasn't important.
ReplyDeletei was on the fasting, feasting passage. & they were talking about what the title meant. so what exactly is the title here supposed to mean? "the other paris".... i know paris is like, the city of love, but.... they're not in love. so is it just that? That as Paris, you're supposed to expect love, but as it happens, in THIS paris, there is no real love? Carol, in the beginning, she's picturing like herself IN LOVE, & IN PARIS. but she's in paris right now, but she's NOT in love. so for her, she's just in a whole other paris? what do you guys think?
I think Gallant titles the poem "The Other Paris," referring to the North American perception of France. As Alethea was saying in class, Quebec, Canada is considered the "second Paris" because it acts as a romantic getaway as well. But that's where the irony kicks in, because they're not even in love. As I stated above in my first post with lines 43-44. I'm not sure though, just saying!
ReplyDeleteI thought I changed my name to JENNICA, ahh.
In response to Hans comparison to the characters relationship to the the title, I have to agree. We sometimes associate the "Paris" with Romance /love. When changed to "The Other Paris" it means something more different; or the opposite (of love and romance). In other words,it compares to the characters "dilemma" of a relationship (Carols doubts and thoughts of the proposal, and Howards somewhat "blind love")
ReplyDeleteAnother question; Does anyone see instances of Irony in the story? For example; Carol thinks that when she is proposed to, that she is surrounded by the beauty of Paris, rather than being proposed at a snack table. Another example is how the characters see each other in the relationship, Carols doubts contrasting to Howards confidence. So, are there anymore?
In response to Nicks comment about the couple being influenced into marriage, it is like Carol and Howard pressured into it. Just like in high school when people feel peer presured to do something. Since CArol feels like she was "under the illusion that in a short time she would be so old no one would ask her" she was pressured to say yes to Howard cause she thought no one else would ask her. Howard seemed whatever about the idea of marrying Carol. He just wanted someone to be his "housemaid" and wanted to find someone to to fill in at dinner so he wont be lonely. Also since he just asked CArol over a tuna-fish salad lunch it shows his dedication to the relationship. The two people are just using each other so they wont be lonely when they get older. Carol believed that the love would grow "after the right conditions".
ReplyDeleteI also agree with Jennicas view about the idea of the title being "The Other Paris" because many people believe that Paris is the place of romance, "the city of light", but in the excerpt it shows the love between Howard and Carol as the opposite. Just as a small little thing that can grow. Unlike love in Paris is very romantic and beautiful.
ReplyDeleteIn addition with Nikko's comment, "The Other Paris" may also refer to love and how we do not quite see the harsh nature and consequences of love but only the fairy tale-side to it. Carol envisions love as what the general public sees, perfection.
ReplyDeleteHere is a quote that fits both situations of Howard and Carol:
"Love: a temporary insanity, curable by marriage."
-Ambrose Bierce
Notice how the quote does not define love specifically, but in a vague manner. Reference the quote as how both understood love. They both had "temporary" personal needs, and saw marriage as an opportunity to accomplish this need. There truly was no love, but in a general sense, they loved one another through their motivation of what they wanted.
In additional to Jennica's comment Peer pressure may be one great benefactor. Where back 1950's, a single 22 year old may be uncommon to today's standards. Perhaps peer pressure from friends and families, she grew desperate to the point that conditional love was the only option, for "no one had proposed to her before".
Okay, so I agree with what was said during my class in 4th period but I wasn't in that time to be able to say anything. Anyways the point is that I think that both Howard and Carol have just found each other by surprise. I also think that they have been desperately trying to find someone. For one, because like Abra said, there is a lot of pressure put on people by society to be a certain way or to even be married at a certain time in your life, especially during the time when this was wrote Carol would have already been too old to not be married at only twenty-two.
ReplyDeleteAnother thing I thought was interesting was the almost total extreme of the vision that we get in the first paragraph about typically a "Hollywood" portrayed proposal and then the actuality of it.
Also, I think the rain has a certain significance that I haven't figured out yet, but like Karemy mentioned during my period it could be change.. I think that would make sense, but I'm not sure yet. Does anyone have any ideas?
Another thing is that I think both Harold and Carol think that their marriage will work because they have certain things in common and that they will be overall content spending their lives together. I don't think that the point of it was that they were both trying to find someone that could support one another but that they were both just settling for each other because they felt as if they were running out of time or that they would not find anyone better. Even possibly in Carol's case she had simply given up on love, true love that is.
-Ariana Velazquez(:
"The Other Paris" seems to greatly express Mavis Gallant's negative perspective on bland forms of marriage. Assuming Gallant is trying to emphasize her disapproval of these types of marriages, I can't help but feel sympathetic towards married couples who do marry because of the pressures of society (that Aabra and Ariana have mentioned) and not because of the love between each other. Don't get me wrong, I do think marriage should be a huge commitment between two people who can support and love each other forever, but I also think in some cases (like that of "The Other Paris") marriage can be the extra push two people need to actually become closer and truly in love. Just saying, ha.
ReplyDelete- J.R. Guarnes
Uh, my question is, Do any you think that Carol will ever actually fall in love with Howard and vice versa?
ReplyDeleteI mean, Carol doesn't know a thing about love, except for what she learned in college and what she see's in the media. In fact, even if she does fall into love, I really don't think Carol will even know what she's feeling is love. She just envisions love as "perfect." I heard the priest at church once say that love isn't perfect. There's always going to be bumps in the road but that the couple has to be able to get over those bumps and move on.
Nick was 128 % right when he said they were influenced into the marriage. The society of that time made Carol believe she only had a few years before she would never be married. The same is probably true of Howard. She panicked now she rushed into a marriage she will not be ready for. To add to my "bump in the road" comment, Carol is speeding down Love Road, and when she hits the bump, she will go flying.
To my question, I think no because if Carol thinks love is perfect, she will think that love will all of sudden happen after the wedding. The same goes for Howard, who apparently is just as clueless about love as Carol is. The first bump they hit will the hard reality check for them.
One thing that caught my attention was the date that the this excerpt was written, 1953.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone know if the date has any significance relating to the subject of marriage?
I like Adrians comment about love
ReplyDelete"Love: a temporary insanity, curable by marriage."
-Ambrose Bierce
It relates to the excerpt very well because Carol and Howard do no love each other right now, but when they get married they believe the love will grow and change.
jrguarnes i think the year DOES have a significance. i belive Carol and Harold fit the characterstics that in 1953 people looked for in a partner. They want someone reliable, wise, and has control. While women were only asked to keep the house clean and orderly and to keep the kids and husband happy.
ReplyDeleteyes, i agree with leana, how the year plays a significant role in influencing how the story is projected. in the 50's the typical family was one of where the women were looked upon as to take care of the house while the men were the main sources of income. this is seen directly in the story,as in lines 30-31, stating that Carol and Howard had "similar economic backgrounds, (and) financial security". it is also seen in line 41 where Howard is described as an economist. the image of a man being the main source of income is pretty much essential in society's cliched form of relationship and love, even seen today.many people care not about the love, but whether or not they would be able to be financially stable. this was especially true during the time of the 50's, where people were amidst a recession, and people were desperate for money. this same reasoning can also apply to modern times, because we are in a recession ourselves. another reason i think Carol accepted the proposal so quickly is also the fact of how paranoid she was. in lines 16-18 it is directly stated that "she was under the illusion that in a short time she would be so old no one would ask her again (to marry.)" many people looking for "love" are usually just trying to use their partner. this excerpt is a direct example of that statement.
ReplyDeleteOn Darien's comment on the irony in the story, I agree that there are a few instances of that. At the beginning of the story there is Carol's imagined proposal of that "involved all at once the Seine, moonlight, barrows of violets, acacias in flowers..." Then in the next paragraph we are told of the true proposal, where Harold "proposed at lunch, over a tuna-fish salad." I agree with Darien that this creates irony. I think that it may be a foil as well. When we read the first paragraph, we imagine the stereotypical romantic scenery. Then in the next paragraph we are told that the proposal actually occured over lunch. That makes Harold's proposal seem even more dreary with the foil.
ReplyDeleteAnother example of irony in the passage is what Harold feels when Carol says yes to his proposal. Harold "alternated between a state of numbness and a state of self-congratulation." He doesn't feel ecstatic that she accepted, but rather proud that he asked. Most people would be more joyous over the person saying yes.
Carol's idea of love is ironic in a sense. Most find that love is something unpredictable, yet Carol uses "great efficiency" to fall in love. She blames random things for the denial of her love. "She was often convinced that she would fall deeply in love with Howardif only it would stop raining." Carol believes that the weather is stopping her from falling in love. Not many would come to that assumption.
btw i am Brandon-Roy Sadiarin in period 5.
ReplyDeleteIn addition, Gallant treats love as logic through lines 50-54, "Given a good climate, enough money, and a pair of good-natured, intelligent (her college lectures had stressed this) people..." As discussed in class, love acts a formula in this story since it's not genuine. Carol is convincing herself that she will fall in love with Howard, marrying out of practicality, "Undaunted, she waited for better times (line 58)."
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, there is more I would like to add on to what I've said on them trying to fit in with the "standards of society." Gallant emphasizes the primary function of women in marriage, "Unless he stumbled on a competent housemaid, nothing ever get done" caring for the house, rather than demonstrating love. In the 1950's, this was ideal for marriage as well as Howard's character, "sober, old enough to know his own mind, and absolutely reliable (lines 39-40)."
Miguel Pimentel
ReplyDeletePeriod 1
So, everyone seems to agree that Howard and Carol were pressured into marriage by society. I doubt they will ever fall in love and their attitudes, I think, are the prefect recipe for marital failure. I hope they call off the engagement soon. I think Mavis Gallant is trying to voice her disapproval of the way people thought of marriage and love in the 1950s, but at the same time she focuses more on Carol and Howard's inability to challenge what society has told them. They both realize there is something wrong with their engagement; Gallant writes that Howard "alternated between between a state of numbness and a state of self-congratulation" following his proposal, and Carol tries to reassure herself by looking back at college lectures on marriage. Here Gallant reveals Howard and Carol's unhappiness with their love lives but she doesn't feel bad for them. In fact, Gallant seems frustrated at them for allowing themselves to be so influenced by society. So what if your sister tells you to marry? Why allow yourself to be cast under the illusion that you are too old? Instead of following their instincts and seeking a more genuine relationship, Howard and Carol give in to society's pressures. Howard looks forward to having Carol be his maid-like social accessory, while Carol is thrilled to know that Howard will offer her financial stability. It is ironic, however, that these two think their marriage is bound to succeed when their personalities and aspirations are, in reality, so incompatible. While Carol thinks she knows everything about the inner workings of a successful marriage, she is not aware that Howard couldn't care less about marriage and that his proposal to her was "quite out of character," having disregarded his "uncommonly cautious" nature.
I agree with Aabra reply to Darien's question because the comparisons Aabra makes are opposite examples. Caraol's image of a proposal consisted of romantic flowers and a beutiful background, but shifted to an odd proposal during lunch over a tuna salad. I also feel that the story contains humor since Carol is being proposed over a tuna salad.
ReplyDeleteI feel that the proposal has alot more meaning. We know by the first paragraph that Carol has a sense of what love should be which was romantic and beutiful. The actual proposal was not romantic or beutiful but just strange. This gives further evidence that the two are not supposed to be married and do not share love. Another piece of evidence that shows they are not supposed to be married was in the end of the last paragraph where it says that the two celebrated using wine instead of champage because they were too diffident to suggest it. Carol and Howard would have enjoyed champagne over wine but they did not know each other well enough and was diffident to even suggest it. This is huge because it shows that they are shy with each other and yet do not even know each others similarities.
"Do any you think that Carol will ever actually fall in love with Howard and vice versa?" -Chris Johnson
Carol and Howard will not fall in love but just show the image they love each other. Howard and Carol are only doing it so they have the image of being married. It would be cruel to say that they will not fall in love but it seems so unlikely. There is more reasons why this couple should get a divorce versus this couple staying married.
When reading through these comments I pretty much agreed with everything that was said.
ReplyDeleteEspecially the repeated notion that both Howard and Carol were pressured by society to marry each other as quickly as they did. Carol being under the impression that soon no one would ask to marry her, the sad part being that she's only 22. With Howard, the push his sister gave him. By telling him to "marry some nice girl before it was to late". Sad for Howard because, "His sudden proposal to Carol had been quite out of character"
Concerning the Symbolism of Flowers Gallant uses mentioned by Atsunori. I believe his explanation goes along well with what the story is trying to convey.
On what BrEg0oT said, I definitely agree with what he said. When I think back to the 1950's, I realize that families were extremely important. Carol as a woman is easily scared by the fact that she may never have a man supporting her. Especially in the 1950's when it was a troubling time. Then Howard comes along, with a sturdy economic background and asks to marry her. She says yes, because she feels that he can easily provide for her. She must know of his work considering they both work together, in the American Government Agency.
To answer Chris Johnson's answer: Carol and Howard are very unlikely to fall in love with each other. They are only together because of their own needs and similarities. The title "The Other Paris" hints that their love will always be fake love. Also they were both forced to marry. Howard's sister gave him pressure to marry someone quickly before it was too late and Carol wanted to marry someone not for true love but for stable living conditions. Another thing to look at is the date. It was written in 1953 and at that time people married young. This was probably why Carol wanted to marry quickly before she bacame too old. There is a slight chance that they will find true love through out their lives but it is ver unlikely.
ReplyDeleteIn lines 56-58 it says "She was often convinced she would fall deeply in love with Howard if only it would stop raining." Why does Carol think that she will fall in love with Howard if it stopped raining? What does the Rain symbolize?
In response to J.R., yes, the date it was wrote has a lot to deal with the way marriage was perceived during this time. During that time Carol would have already been old and would think that she was done with. That is why it seems like it's not that she just wants someone to support her but that she doesn't want to end up alone and she is afraid that her time is running short. Most people in the late 50's were getting married early, like straight out of high school still. It was a very different time and so marriages were still sometimes viewed also as a way to higher your level in society even.
ReplyDeleteContuining from my discussion I was wondering why Carol believed that weather would affect wheather or not she would fall in love. As it says in lines 46-50 it says " Love required only the right conditions, like a geranium. It would wither exposed to bad weather or in dismal surroundings; indeed, Carol rated the chances of love in a cottage or a furnished room at zero." I Think that Carol and Howard can find love and be happy together if given time to get to know one another and find an interest in each other instead of getting marry just to get married. I believe that Howards proposing to Carol was rushed beacause he barley even knows her yet only doesn't even love her or possibly like her. I think Carol should ignore what she's learning in her college lectures beacause as it says in lines 50-53 " Given a good climate, enough money, and a pair of good-natured intelligent (her college lectures had stressed this) people, one had only to sit back and watch it grow. I think that u should marry someone if u truly love them, even though they might not make a good amount of money, or beacause the weather isnt perfect, or even if there not intelligent as you, people always figure a way out to make things work.
ReplyDeleteAdding onto Nikko's comment on how the Title can reflect the story: Paris is a vision of a perfect love, a place where true love between individuals is genuine and all real. Now when the title is placed as "The Other Paris", it is simply referring to the opposite of Paris, the opposite of this true love we see. Carol and Harold are complete opposites when it comes to their views and understandings on love and relationships. We see this whole side of the perfect relationship, even though they are supposedly towards a "marriage that shouldnt fail".
ReplyDeleteIn response to Chris' question about them ever falling in love, I dont believe they will. I think they could possibly become very good friends. But as far as we can tell from this passage, they dont have much attraction to each other or other elements that are necessary to be in love with someone. Unless either one of them finds another person to love or they decide they are not content in a loveless marriage I think they would stay together because of another pressure from society. Though divorce rates are up, I don't think anyone really looks at it as a "good" or even okay thing. Wether it is because of your religion, or just moral beliefs, no one gets married to get divorced, so I think both Carol and Harold would stay together because of that reason also. I mean there is a possibility they could eventually fall in love, but it just doesn't seem probable.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Miguel, Howard and Carol are definitely on the path of divorce. The two are uncomfortable with each other, and you cannot commit to being married if you have any doubts. When you consider getting married you should feel at ease with your significant other and feel no pressure to suggest champagne instead of wine. Carol has the impression that love is two people that are well suited for each other. Howard and Carol might have the same job, but their interests differ greatly. This couple isn't falling in love, they're SETTLING for each other. Both have the mindset that if they don't marry soon, it will be too late. Carol is being influenced by the media, and Howard by his family.
ReplyDeleteMalvis Gallant used the introduction to add a sense or ridiculousness to the passage. Describing Carol's fantasy of the flowers and the Eiffel Tower at first sound so elegant. Until she bluntly states, "actually, he proposed at lunch, over a tuna fish salad." And the way she characterizes them, it seems like she's trying to make a fool out of them. Carol believes that her feelings for Howard will change after the weather changes? HA. i don't think so.
First of all, i cant believe mark gave me a C. Anyways, i noticed a bunch of obvious irony in "the other passage" that amazingly no one in the second group ever pointed out! throughout the passage, Carol emphasizes her desire to marry someone "intelligent", but the author seems to try a bit too hard throughout the whole passage to tell us that both Howard and Carol are complete idiots! one part that was especially stupid and funny was lines 56-58 where Carol trully believes she will fall in love with Howard if only it stopped raining! LOL are you kidding me!? i though she went to college or something...? Furthermore, Carol makes it clear she accepts Howard because he is "reliable". But in lines 67-68, it says "Unless he stumbled on a competent housemaid, nothing ever got done." sounds pretty reliable to me!(sarcasm). and this may be just me, but i noticed that Carol points outh that Howard is sober, but the whole marrige gives me the sense of being a sort of spontaneous marrige in Vegas(when people are usually not sober), based on the little amount of time the characters have known each other! So much irony!!!! oh and another random thing i noticed- both of their parents are attorneys, attorneys are known for lying, and Carol and Howard are both lying TO THEMSELVES by getting married with people they dont really love... just saying... the reason why the author uses so much irony is to show that he thinks marrige is often stupid, and unknowlegdeable. maybe the author had a bad experience, i dont know, but he clearly isnt a huge fan of the idea of marrige.
ReplyDeletehaha wow leo you have some interesting input. but yea the idea that carol blames the rain for her absence of love is ridiculous. and i never thought about the fact that both both their parents are attorneys (who are known for lying) that does make sense.
ReplyDeleteReading through these comments, the most commonly talked about topics are that the passage was written in 1953, and that they were pressured into love. While I agree on the most part about how they were pressured, I believe we should strongly concentrate on the way the author Gallant wrote the passage, as that is what the prompt is asking for. While what the passage is saying is very important, we should see how the way he uses narrative voice and characterization to talk about society.
ReplyDeleteEveryone commented on how they are pressured into love, and we can conclude that Gallant is trying to say something about society. I 100% agree with Leo's view on the irony of Gallant. What I think, is that Gallant is being sadistic and displaying a perfect characterization of our society. Two "lovers" getting married for no absolute reason, except the wants of society. Because society craves the "perfect" background of people and good money status, Carol accepts to be engaged to Howard. Gallant comments on the absolute outrageousness of how the two people are getting married after knowing each other for three weeks! He is being ironic towards society. This love is what both lovers dislike and don't really want, but are only pressured into it by the cravings of society.
the fact that "he proposed to her over tuna salad" as Keith said, is Gallant's way of poking fun at the situation.
Also one main point I would like to add is that Mavis Gallant is a female writer. Not male. This also shows how she would be more into the idea of perfect love and be against the way society pressures people to be married, as women of the time would, and probably still do, envision the "perfect proposal" (no offense intended.)
Ryosuke Takeuchi Per.3
ReplyDeleteSo many new posts during the few minutes I typed this up O.o…
Sry if my post’s a bit off timing
On Han’s question about Carol and the rain:
"She was often convinced she would fall deeply in love with Howard if only it would stop raining." Carol believes that love can only occur under the most perfect situations, meaning it cannot happen if there are any problems such as “bad weather.” She even believes falling in love is only for “intelligent people.” As for the symbolism, rain usually serves as a symbol that gives life, but can also be interpreted as negative ideas such as destruction. In this narrative, rain is symbolized in the latter definition, because it is an illusionary barrier for Carol’s love.
I wanted to comment on the essay’s prompt, which was: “explain how the author uses narrative voice and characterization to provide social commentary.” I couldn’t understand the literary part of this question, but I will comment on the second part, the social commentary of the author. I think Gallant wants to criticize the two genders in society and how they treat marriage. For females, she criticizes them because she believes women choose their partners based on their income, career, etc. too much. “He was an economist who had sense enough to attach himself to a corporation that continued to pay his salary during his loan to the government. There was no reason for the engagement or the marriage to fail,” Carol believes. Gallant criticizes males on how they marry in order to escape loneliness and laziness. “Before his engagement he had sometimes been lonely…Unless he stumbled on a competent housemaid, nothing ever got done.” Gallant uses this narrative to criticize the society in the 1950’s and the entire system of marriage.
I dont know if anyone has already said this but do you guys think think that in lines 25-30, it explains the reason why she said yes to Howard? i thought that Carol only said yes because she thought it was "right" due to her "helpful college lectures on marriage". What i don't understand is that why couldn't she just tell Howard that she wasn't ready if she was so unsure if she really "loved" him?
ReplyDeletewow so many people have interesting opinions on this passage. and everytime i read a new entry i learn something else about it. i agree with ryosuke about how Gallant portrays marriage and WHY people get married. Women often choose men who are rich with nice houses and cars and other materialistic things. Men marry to escape being alone and have someone to take care of them and their home the rest of their lives. (this is just what the author believes, i'm not saying i agree with it). But now that ryosuke mentioned it, i reread the passage and it does seem that way.
ReplyDelete@Jar
ReplyDeleteThe reason that Carol accepted his proposal is that society was pressuring her into marriage as well as Howard. The short time period of three weeks shows Gallant's disapproval of the pressures of society. She(Gallant) is saying how true love is important.
I completely agree with you that the 25-30 lines are the reason. You could also add in the fact that the whole paragraph adds to that sense. The last sentence of the paragraph "there was no reason for the engagement or the marriage to fail" is obviously conveying Gallant's sadistic tone.
In response to Jar's question, "What i don't understand is that why couldn't she just tell Howard that she wasn't ready if she was so unsure if she really "loved" him?"
ReplyDeleteIn lines 16-18 it says "She was under the illusion that in a short time she would be so old no one would ask her again. She accepted at once..." Carol was so scared of never getting another opportunity to get married and meet society's expectations, that she accepted without a second thought. Likewise, it was a very irresponsible act by Howard to propose to Carol in such a short time span of three weeks of knowing her, but i guess you can't blame the poor guy for being pressured so much by his sister's advice, which was very cruel and unnecessary.
@JR; @Bryan Jeong
ReplyDeleteYes, i was just about to answer my own question with the same response. Not to sound mean or anything, but she could've been desperate to find someone soon; and the more she worries about how old she is turning and how fast time is running out, the more desperate she gets. She wanted to find someone to marry without even recognizing if it was "true love" or "meant to be".
Adding to Bryan's response about Carol. But she's barely 22 years old she has a whole life ahead of her to find true love and be happy with someone she loves instead of marrying Howard because she is pressured by society. I would understand if they knew each other and cared for one another then yea its compeltely understandable but they hardly know each other so I don't know why she would be pressured by society.
ReplyDelete@alexblas She's pressured because she feels that she NEEDS to be married at her "ancient" age. She thinks she needs to be married as soon as possible because of the pressure society places.
ReplyDelete@Jar Yompies.
@Bryan
ReplyDeleteOk after reading what you said earlier about the characterization I agree on what you are saying about Carol. I see why she needs to marry at an early age because of the whole society thing. I think Gallant made the story this way because like you said Bryan "Two "lovers" getting married for no absolute reason, except the wants of society. Because society craves the "perfect" background of people and good money status" I also have my belief in this reason how being pressured can make you do things without thinking.
well maybe 22 WAS the average age to get married back then. i dont know what the life expectancy was at that time but it couldnt have been the same as it is today. possibly a few years younger. and if you think about it, the average age to get married nowadays is what, 25-28? some might believe 30 is too late. thats only a few years away from 22 so maybe she's not a total idiot and actually has a point.
ReplyDelete@bryan jeong
ReplyDeletei totally agree with what you are saying about how she thinks she is "running out of time" because, bringing back what @Aiheartsu said, "Most people in the late 50's were getting married early, like straight out of high school still. It was a very different time and so marriages were still sometimes viewed also as a way to higher your level in society even." It connects to what @Ariheartsu said about people getting married earlier back in the late 50's because Carol, being "ONLY" 22 worrys that she'll never find anyone she can marry before she dies. Now-a-days people could get married in ages as old as 30s-40s. That is probably why @AlexBlas was unsure about Carol being pressured when she is only 22; therefore, both of you guys, @Bryan Jeong and @Alex Blas, have correct opinons.
I did some reasearch and the average life expectancy in 1950 for a European was around 68. I dont really think we can consider that Carol accepted the proposal from Howard because of a short life span. If they actually do get married, they still have plenty time to get a divorce and remarry and start a new family.
ReplyDeleteThis link shows the median age at first marriage from 1950.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005061.html
@Jar yes I completely agree with you. But the only reason the author mentions the ages is to satirize how she is so young, yet society is pressuring her into marriage early. @Krietz Yes I also agree with you.
ReplyDeleteI see the dilema with Carol's age. The 50's are completely different then today's society. Today, people around the age of 40 could still be searching for love. I think that Carol was so eager to get married before it was too late because opportunities for women weren't as available as they are today. I think women were dependent on their husbands in those days in which he was the one who made most or all of the important decisions in the household. Women primarily stayed at home in order to portray the role of obidient wife or caring mother. If a women was to be alone in times like these, it would be difficult to be taken seriously, which is probably what Carol feared (other than not finding true love).
ReplyDelete@jar
ReplyDeletewhich is why you shouldn't be pressured into being married if you have no feelings for a person and just because you are being pressured by society. Even though it was back in the 1950s like @Aiheartsu was saying that people were getting married for no reason could probaley jusify the fact that Carol got married Howard for the H E double hockey sticks.
of it... I 4got to add it in
ReplyDelete(Alysa Caoile Period 5)
ReplyDeleteGallant uses direct characterization in her short story to tell us the personality of Howard. "Howard had no notion of any of this. His sudden proposal to Carol had been quite out of character- he was uncommonly cautious- and he alternated between a state of numbness and a state of self congratulation." (Lines 59-63) He is completely blind towards Carol's aspirations of falling in love. Howard's sister advised him to get married, and he seized the opportunity with Carol with no intention of discovering love. Being "uncommonly cautious" means that he has a knack for jumping into situations without thinking things through. Since a proposal is a big step leading into marriage, Howard is still shocked that he is actually willing to committ himself to a woman that he has known for only three weeks! The author also tells us that "... he was discontented with his bachelor households...Unless he stumbled on a competent housemaid, nothing ever got done." (Lines 65-68) If he is unhappy with how dirty his home is, then Howard should go back and live with him mom. Howard expects that Carol will be doing the housework, but if she went to college then she obviously wants to be apart of the workforce.
someone has very strong feelings towards howard haha but i agree! if you want someone to clean up after you go live with your mommy! dont rely on your wife to do everything for you
ReplyDeleteIn response to Chris' question of course they would love each other. As I said before during class, if both were given just the right amount of time to get know each other more, rather than rely on that small 3 week period, of course their relationship would work out properly.
ReplyDeleteMy question is, why do you guys think Howard, out of all the people, chose Carol? I mean, he certainly was not desperate as Carol was. Sure they both had the same religious beliefs and similar occupations, but that does not necessarily contribute to love. So why exactly did he choose her? Obviously he needed a housemaid to pick after him, but does that really require a high standard person as Carol? It does not require a lot of work to find a suitable person who can meet the requirements of a housemaid, more so hire one.
replying to adrian alonzo, he didnt "choose" carol. he "settled" for her. in the passage it says that his sister told him to "marry some nice girl before it was too late." so carol came along and so howard was probably thinking "hm..she seems nice. i guess she will have to do." but i dont know. that's my opinion on the subject.
ReplyDeleteummm wow? did my post really erase because i didnt make an account first? and it wouldnt even let me copy and paste...
ReplyDeletei want to give up and go to sleep, but i know i'll regret it.. so here i go AGAIN.
let me test it out first to make sure it wont happen AGAIN.
I think it's silly how Howard and Carol got married in an instant, without building a friendship first. They barely knew each other for about only three weeks and they weren't even in love with each other. Anyways, I find the story kind of ironic, because it seems like they had mixed feelings for each other.. or i don't know but it seems like the story went from lies at the beginning to the real truth at the end. For example, in the beginning when they were "celebrating" their proposal, Howard had ordered a bottle of wine when they both would have preferred a bottle of champagne instead. This just shows a lack of communication between the two of them and building up a friendship first would have been for the better for both of them. Anyways, they married without the true love and when they separated they both seemed "okay"/neutral about it.. they didn't seem "heartbroken"/sad or mad about the situation.
ReplyDeleteBecause of this, it just proves that they were never really truly in love to begin with. I believe that maybe the reason for them getting married was because of their fear of being alone and not finding that significant other before they turned "too old". They both probably thought time would run out for them to get married, especially Carol. She probably felt pressured because like in the story, "she was under the illusion that in a short time she would be so old no one would ask her again." But I personally believe you are never too old to get married, because true love comes at its own time and it seemed as if Carol was trying to force herself to love Howard.. and also maybe seemed as if she was hoping that maybe after they got married she would finally fall in love with him, but that obviously didn't happen. As for Howard, sometimes I assume maybe he just wanted a housewife? I'm not sure why else he would be in such of a rush to get married...
The theme here I believe is that love is just suppose to happen, you CAN NOT make it happen because love will eventually find you no matter how old you are, your time will come. You're never too old to find your true love.
-vanessa drouet, period 3
*the first post I had written seemed more thought out, longer, and better explained. agh. I really can't believe I had to do this again.
I agree with the idea of Howard settling for Carol, since he actually needed someone to help at home. He wanted someone reliable to help him get things done at home.
ReplyDeleteI also think that Carol seems to be more of twin souls, but Howard is more of a opposites attract kind of guy, since he wanted help at being organized.This is one of women's many wonderful characteristics that Howard seemed to not pocess. So, again, he settled for Carol.
@nivok_nachos93
ReplyDeleteIt doesnt sound that Harold needs help at home (possible though) but probably since his sisters have "advised him to marry some nice girl before its too late."( in other words, goaded into proposing to Carol)
Other than that, He must really like Carol, but does not have reason except 'you'll just be a person who fills in at dinner." (Another example: "Howard saw the picture and was deeply move by it")
In short: He is blindly in love
So, could harold be feeling something else than love?
It seems like Gallant has an issue with the way TV and movies portray marriage. I'm not sure if she is for the idea of love being the center, or if she thinks that it is overrated. I think that she wants her readers to know that marriage can be happy with or without love.
ReplyDeleteCarol seems like someone who is caught up in work and only believes things that are written in books. Since there is a small section that talks about what she learned in a college course about marriage, it proves that she is kind of a bookworm kind of person.
Howard seems like he is super shy and scared out of his shorts at the idea of marriage, but does it so he doesn't end up "'...a person who fills in at dinner.'" I don't think he had much of a reason to propose except for the pressure from his family and the fear of being alone for the rest of his life.
I think the the beautiful scene in the beginning had some sort of symbolism in it.
The beginning is sort of like a fairy tale wedding; the kind of wedding everyone wants. As the story continues the image of a beautiful wedding gets messed up because you start to think that maybe the marriage will fail no matter what they say.
I don't think that either of them are in love. They're just forcing themselves to feel love and it doesn't work that way.
I think I kind of agree with Caitlin in tha Gallant is trying to show an opinion in a way that poses questions to something that we may otherwise not question if we encountered a similar situation in our life. But I kind of think that there is more to it than that. Maybe it has nothing to do with marraige at all. It seems to me like it has more to do with the way people prefer to make decisions; based on logic, because it simple. I think a point is being made to draw attention to the fact that maybe whats comfotable for us or easy for us, isnt always what we're going to appreciate in the long run. You never know what is goig to happen between Carol and Howard a few years down the road. Maybe they will have enough in common to grow their love. Or maybe, they will realize that they dont have feelings for each other and all they will ever be is too people who's lives are easy to mesh together. It seems like maybe the passge was to provoke questioning about things that may otherwise seem natural.
ReplyDeleteSO SORRY I'M LATE!
ReplyDeleteplus same thing happened to me that happened to Vanessa D. okay here we go.
It is an important aspect that this is written in narrative voice. Readers can get the feel of what the characters are actually thinking. I'm darn sure that Carol had no idea that Howard parshly married her because he is afraid to live alone (like some men in society) and also that he needs a maidlike woman to be with him because he can't get anything done without one. Along with the fact that he wants someone to make food for him- Gallant represents Howard as men, not just him. This social commmentary is based on how men kind of use women. NOT ALL MEN THOUGH. Another way narrative voice was helpful was when he admitted that he didn't know why he even proposed! The social commentary for women is that they are naive. All we want is love love love. According to Carol, as long as a couple has things in common- you will live happily ever after. And if not, you can just go to college and learn allllll about it. Another social commentary on women is their relience on men's mula. Which is obvilusly mostly true in society.
LAAAATE! thanks for letting me do this again!
ReplyDeleteAlot of people are saying that Carol and Howard found each other and they are happy or could become happy. But i dont believe that. i wrote on my paper about how i was really disappointed as to how they viewed love, like they could magically learn how to fake that inexplicable feeling that so many want to feel. i feel like she just gave up! they jumped at it to quickly and are playing it too safe. She doesnt seem to care if shes inlove as long as shes in a stable relationship, Then she says that its the weather thats not right, when really its not there. i believe that if love isnt there its very hard to develop! Being afraid of being alone is not a good reason to settle for someone becuase your never too old to fall in love.
:) I know that I am not a part of this class (I believe only memebers are answering) but I can take in both ways of the portrayal of this excerpt. What i was thinking is that he may just as well be using an ironic tone describing how imperfect and dull their marriage would be if they married for social status. Considering it is written in 1950 (though i am not sure) i believeeee that they looked for social status, not love. Then again, i don't know my time periods. The remark about the flowers: i can take it as you explain it but also i know that flowers need sun and water to blossom. I could take it that the sun and water could amount to love needed for a couple to blossom. (Now that i think of it) it can also be symbolic of financial stability that is needed in order to keep the relationship intact. I am curious is there any definite explanation the author gave? i am curious, what do you guys think?
ReplyDeleteAll right so i looked it up and apparently there was this huge thing on pressure of getting married for women in the 1950s. Thus i will write my essay on the other team :). The way that he speaks of the characters and how even the names are "typical" portrays a somewhat ironic tone as to show how he dislike the whole idea of marriage without love. He wants there to be a special connection. He is going against typical society, which is what many writers do.
ReplyDelete